2020 Camaro: "Less ugly and more affordable"

Non-repair car talk
kevm14
Posts: 15812
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:28 pm

2020 Camaro: "Less ugly and more affordable"

Post by kevm14 »

These headlines are hilarious.
The 2020 Chevrolet Camaro Is Less Ugly and Offers an Affordable V-8 Model
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a2734 ... otos-info/
Chevy Has Heard Your Collective Gagging, Introduces Face-Lifted 2020 Chevrolet Camaro SS
https://www.motortrend.com/news/2020-ch ... 300F2705DB

This will be an interesting case study. As I mentioned before the Camaro sales were going down prior to the 2019 refresh. So it will be really interesting to see how the combination of a cheaper V8 model and styling update will move that needle. And if not, then that is why an OEM should not just read forums and then design vehicles based on that.

From C&D:
After a controversial refresh for 2019, Chevrolet has revised the Camaro SS's front-end styling for 2020, repositioning the bow-tie emblem and making the bumper insert body color. But that's not even the most exciting of the changes Chevrolet is introducing for 2020: a new, affordable model called the LT1 offers the burly 6.2-liter V-8 engine, previously offered only in the SS, at a lower price point.

The Camaro LT1 starts at $34,995, a $3000 drop compared to the current 2019 Camaro's cheapest V-8 model, the 1SS, which starts at $37,995. It also just undercuts the cheapest V-8–powered Ford Mustang, the $36,450 GT. The Camaro LT1 is essentially the same as the Camaro's 1LT trim level, but with the 455-hp V-8 stuck under the hood. It also gets LT1 fender badges, the vented hood from the SS, and black bow-tie emblems. A lesser wheel and tire package, with 20-inch wheels wrapped in all-season tires that are the same size all around, ensures that the LT1 won't upset the performance hierarchy, as the SS still reigns supreme with its more aggressive, staggered-width summer tires.
MT had this to say about the styling update:
One of the biggest updates for the 2020 Camaro model year is a new front-end design for the SS that's based on the Camaro Shock concept at last year's SEMA show. The main tweaks include moving the bowtie emblem from the front crossbar to the upper grille, as well as rendering that bar in body color rather than black. This addresses the gripes many fans had when the refreshed Camaro debuted last year.
2020 Camaro
2020-chevrolet-camaross-001-1556809303.jpg
2019 Camaro
2019-chevrolet-camaro-2ss-10at-101-1544548405.jpg
I'll let Bill discuss styling because I really don't care all that much (FWIW, I do prefer the bowtie on the grill) - and I'll say again, basing styling on the loudest section of the internet is really not the way to design a car because large swaths of those people are not really potential buyers in which case their opinion does not matter at all. Moving on.

I like the trim name. LT1. Clever. LT refers to being inferior to SS trim (i.e. 1SS, 2SS). And rather than 1LT which is the V6, they made it LT1 to match the engine. Again, clever. I don't know if this means they basically put the LT1 into a V6 trim car. Sort of sounds like that. But yeah new base price for a V8 of $35k (which is $3k cheaper than 1SS trim) which undercuts the Mustang by about $1,500 (which frankly is good because the updated GT is faster than the Camaro SS at this point). If the LT1 is lighter though, that is an interesting thing. I don't know what the actual market factors will be like but I could see a 1SS being discounted more than an LT1 at which point that $3k savings could diminish further so not sure how big of a difference this will really make to ultimate sales. As an enthusiast, I don't think I'd want anything to do with an LT1 trim car if I was looking for a used Camaro, because higher trims are almost always a better value on the used market as they depreciate further/faster.

Another messed up factor is, the lower base price on the V8 could get people into the showroom, even if they drive out with a 1SS or even 2SS. I guess that is something to consider. I personally think that is dumb, but I also think people are dumb. These are largely the same people who take on ridiculous car payments without thinking too much about the finances.

Also V6 news.
V-6 Camaros benefit from a new 10-speed automatic transmission, which replaces the old eight-speed (a six-speed manual remains standard). The base turbocharged 2.0-liter four-cylinder sticks with a standard six-speed manual or an optional eight-speed automatic, while V-8 models offer the six-speed manual or the 10-speed automatic.
That V6 is going to be quick. It already runs like 13.8 @ 104. It might do something like a 13.7 @ 105.
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kevm14
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Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:28 pm

Re: 2020 Camaro: "Less ugly and more affordable"

Post by kevm14 »

kevm14 wrote:Another messed up factor is, the lower base price on the V8 could get people into the showroom, even if they drive out with a 1SS or even 2SS. I guess that is something to consider. I personally think that is dumb, but I also think people are dumb. These are largely the same people who take on ridiculous car payments without thinking too much about the finances.
Tangent time.

Loan of $35k at 4% over 6 years
Payment: $547.58
Interest: $4,425.86
Total cost: $39,425.86

Loan of $42k at 4% over 6 years
Payment: $657.10
Interest: $5,311.03
Total cost: $47,311.03

So for only an extra $110/mo, you could upgrade from that LT1 trim to a 2SS. But that's actually an extra $7,885.17, 11% of which is pure waste (interest).

Now on the other hand, by the time you factor possible trades and a reasonable down payment you can take some of the sting out. But I guess my point is, someone should have no easier time talking themselves into another $110/mo than they do talking themselves into an extra $7,885.17. Keyword is "should."

Sure maybe it is "worth it" to pay an extra $110/mo (which is $1,320/yr, the number of feet in a 1/4 mile) for the car/trim you want. You can make that argument. But if you don't actually have the $8k, then you don't really have the $110/mo. But, you say, how can someone be expected to have $8k? Easy. Don't pay an extra $110/mo on your 6 year car payment and guess what you'll have? An additional $8k of wealth after 72 months. It's not that complicated; if you can pay $110/mo for 72 months then you can also save $8k. But financial management is hard for a LOT of people.
bill25
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Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:20 pm

Re: 2020 Camaro: "Less ugly and more affordable"

Post by bill25 »

This is a good use case. I am not going to say great.
So it will be really interesting to see how the combination of a cheaper V8 model and styling update will move that needle. And if not, then that is why an OEM should not just read forums and then design vehicles based on that.
This is quote would be the response to the extreme case, not this one.

They did do a lot of what I said. They made the car look a little better, and they made a slightly cheaper v8 car. That is all good, but neither of the changes are dramatic. They painted a black bar on a fugly front end to be body color, but it still has some of the bad characteristics like the weird fangs in the front. It is better though.

The cheaper V8 part is good but... 3K savings isn't going to be a huge change in who can afford this. that is less than 10% off, and they were giving 20% off the SS with all the good stuff so, nothing huge here. If you told me it was the truck 5.3, iron block, that loves aftermarket turbos, for 30K, this would be a different discussion.

I do need to do some looking into what the difference is between LT1 and 1SS packages.
bill25
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Re: 2020 Camaro: "Less ugly and more affordable"

Post by bill25 »

(Not) In other news. Where is the Z/28? The GT500 is coming...
kevm14
Posts: 15812
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Re: 2020 Camaro: "Less ugly and more affordable"

Post by kevm14 »

In the past the ZL1 matched up to the GT500. The Z/28 was a GT350R competitor. The models don't match up one for one. The ZL1 1LE goes after some combination of GT350R and GT500 (not sure). And the regular ZL1 is more for the GT350 but also maybe the GT500 again. The GT500 is not a pure race car thing, it's the high HP option. The Z/28 in gen 5 was not the biggest HP option nor was it the fastest. It was track focused.
bill25
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Re: 2020 Camaro: "Less ugly and more affordable"

Post by bill25 »

Yeah, I know all of that. I am just not sure why Chevy would stand by as the GT got better, and the GT500 gets released, and their response is painting a bumper and making a lower trim level to be cheaper than the Mustang.

Seems like, if there wasn't going to be a Z/28, they could have made the ZL1 the Z/28. I prefer the Z/28 name, that's all. I am also not convinced that they are going to not have one for the Gen 6, just not sure what it would be. Unless they are going to bring out a new NA high HP engine and go all track with weight reduction again. Maybe they spent too much money on the new Corvette.
kevm14
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Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:28 pm

Re: 2020 Camaro: "Less ugly and more affordable"

Post by kevm14 »

http://gmauthority.com/blog/2019/09/new ... st-torque/

Nice little comparison making the case for the new LT1 trim. And it does seem favorable at $35k. That said, the $2,500 reduction in cost from a 1SS comes at a pretty large sacrifice, chief among which is a suspension downgrade. That might be rationale enough to go to a 1SS but I think there are an array of features that are also missing. And if you add anything to the LT1 trim that you actually want, you just further reduce the value of the base trim in the first place. Now, a barebones LT1 trim sitting on a lot for 8 months, discounted to $32k (or $29k), brand new, and maybe you can start talking about that. But the better trims have long been discounted anyway...

Conclusion: I don't think this really solves anything except perhaps as a marketing move to get people in the dealership. Consider it an advertising cost to have created the trim level and all the logistics that go along with that. Time will tell if that was money well spent.

If the use case is, I want the cheapest thing with an LT1 so I can go race and put a turbo on it, I may direct you to an Autotrader search on 2016 Camaro SSs which are certainly a better value than paying new car money for a warranty that GM will cancel on you the minute that thing is a race vehicle.

It's funny. I guess base trims have always been produced for that purpose (i.e. to be able to advertise "Camaro - starting at $35k"). And the top level trims accomplish something similar. At some point though, you have to actually have a plan to sell these cars...if the company can do some creative accounting and consider stuff like this part of the advertising budget, then maybe that works. Not sure how the numbers stack up, though.
bill25
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Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:20 pm

Re: 2020 Camaro: "Less ugly and more affordable"

Post by bill25 »

$2,500 is not a huge discount. Agreed. I guess there might be a case for someone that wants a stripped down car to make a "race car" and this would be a good start since it is probably the lightest option with a V8. Someone buying this to modify, would probably upgrade from the SS suspension anyway, so why pay for it? I think it is cool for GM to basically sell a car to be cheap to drive, or ready to modify. I still think 35K is high for a "cheap car" though. It is also a way better deal than the Challenger now.

It is interesting though for the "Race car" perspective to have the need to buy new and not just get a discounted used as you mentioned for even less money.

I was hoping this trim would get people that were priced out of the SS, and effectively boost sales numbers but, I am not sure 2.5K is going to be a game changer.
(Plus if these boosted sales numbers, I bet people would be interested in these on the used market down the road for a cheap base car to modify)
Bob
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Re: 2020 Camaro: "Less ugly and more affordable"

Post by Bob »

When considering value, we should also consider that GM regularly offers 18-20% off MSRP on most of their models. Getting the LT1 Camaro for under $30k makes it a pretty compelling value. Also, even the downgraded suspension is probably still better than the entry level V8 Challenger and Mustang models.
kevm14
Posts: 15812
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:28 pm

Re: 2020 Camaro: "Less ugly and more affordable"

Post by kevm14 »

Unless no one actually wants this I would expect a smaller discount than a higher trim.
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