Quora: Would a US conservative turn liberal in the EU?

[kevm14]

https://www.quora.com/If-U-S-conservati ... e-liberals

Full question:

If U.S. conservatives moved and lived in Germany, Sweden or Norway for 3-5 years and then came back to the U.S, would they be liberals?

After they got a taste of the higher standard of living, and the universal healthcare etc…could they ever go back to how we have things set up here in the United States?

Would most of them turn into Benie Sanders level or greater liberals after seeing how the other side lives?

Top answer:

Perhaps I can be of help, since I’m a registered Republican (although I don’t always vote for Republican candidates) who moved to Denmark. I’ve now lived in Denmark for 17 years, after growing up in the US, and maintain both citizenships.

I would call myself a fiscal conservative and a social libertarian - I don’t think the government should decide who is allowed to marry whom, for example, but I also don’t think the Feds should be dictating the gender structure of bathrooms in every American school. And I can’t stand us-vs-them identity politics.

I enjoy Denmark and I’m happy to live here.

But what many American liberals - and probably the writer of this question - don’t “get” is that the social welfare state has a substantial component of personal responsibility.

Everyone who can work must work in order to pay the taxes that finance the welfare state.

There are very few stay-at-home parents, for example. Disability payments are extremely difficult to get: the government sends even chronically sick people to “flex jobs” to see if they can eke out a couple of hours of work per week. You get a generous unemployment benefit for two years but are monitored (and basically harassed) to make sure you are constantly looking for work.

There’s also the understanding that the state’s resources are limited.

For example, “universal” health care comes with limits. If you get prostate cancer after age 78, no treatment is available, since the disease has a prognosis of 5 years and the average Danish man’s lifespan is 83.

There’s none of this nonsense of keeping aged people alive indefinitely with expensive medicines and machines. And since the tort system is limited, there’s no “defensive medicine” with unnecessary tests, because lawsuits are rare. Unless a doctor makes a shocking mistake, if you don’t get the care you want that’s just too bad.

“Free” college is also limited in that there is a limited number of places for each subject, and if you don’t get one of those places….you’d better choose another subject. (You can study elsewhere in Europe, of course, but that limits your networking possibilities if you plan a career in Denmark.)

And , of course, there are the taxes. I don’t know where you got the concept that Europeans have a “higher standard of living”. I make what would be considered a good standard of living in the US - between $80,000 and $120,000 a year in my own business - but I live in a one-bedroom apartment with my daughter in a so-so neighborhood and we have no car. My income taxes are between 46%-51% a year, plus 25% sales tax on everything I buy. I am always struggling to pay my taxes.

I think your metaphorical “conservative who moves to Europe” should be replaced by a “liberal who moves to Europe” and figures out that a social welfare state isn’t an endless candy jar.

It requires non-stop input from everyone - not just the rich, not just other people, but you.

Imagine how strong our economy would be if we practiced both capitalism and personal responsibility.

[kevm14]

I think this was the top 3 answer:

“Higher standard of living.”

Oh my. Certainly spoken by someone who’s not lived in the U.S.

It’s long been repeated that if you taken many countries in Europe, they would be among the poorest states in the United States[1].

Take Sweden, France, Germany, the UK. They all rank at or below the bottom half. Numerically, Europe is like living in the Deep South. With castles. Minus alligators.

Okay, okay, that’s not really a fair comparison[2]. The exact calculations are quite debatable[3]. There are income distribution differences. There are tax differences. And quality-of-life government services, such as national healthcare, mass transportation, education, and so forth.

But, on the whole, the difference is pretty large and hard to ignore. At least, in terms of material consumption. (Which isn’t everything in life, mind you.)

Don’t get me wrong. There are parts of Europe that are nice. It holds a quaint charm. For many Americans of European descent, there’s a romantic idea about it. For a long time, I wanted to visit France. And I remember arriving in Paris by train, with the distinct impression that I was entering some kind of Mad-Max-like urban wasteland. Not what I expected. And really nothing was overwhelming beyond that. The urine in the Paris streets was a nice Old World touch, but we have that in the U.S. too.

Living there is very different. For American conservatives, it can often feel frustrating and stifling. Especially in the more northern countries with long-standing cultural traditions like janteloven. To American conservatives, the European crab mentality is a bit… disgusting. I mean that in the emotional sense of feeling disgusted at communities which perniciously tear each other down to maintain some undifferentiated ego mass.

Truth is, universal healthcare doesn’t really exist anywhere in Europe. That's a political ad phrase for their respective national healthcare programs. It’s broad-based, sub-standard, rationed[4] care. (Which takes an awful toll on healthcare professionals[5][6].) Many people, if they can afford it, choose to supplement it with private coverage. It’s true that navigating the financial side of healthcare may be easier in many European states. But, it comes with a lot of indirect costs too. Conservatives really do care about trade-offs in the system.

[One commenter complains that some unidentified country in Europe is “the best in the world.” \Right\. In terms of access to latest medical procedures, the U.S. is peerless. Even in some rural, middle-of-Montana hospitals, you can find some of the latest medical technology.

In terms of care metrics, that’s a harder to quantify because there are different populations and goals. U.S. healthcare treats huge number of people who would not receive care in some European countries. Again, statistics. You could say the U.S. is very wasteful. And that’s part of why prices are so high.

Sad fact: Each year, the U.S. spends more on the treatment and management of preventable lifestyle diseases, than the UK’s NHS’s entire budget—and then 5 time over. Cardiovascular diseases, weight-related diabetes (Type II), COPD, lung cancer, alcoholism related conditions? We treat everything. You’re 85 y.o. with a failing second set of kidneys? Hell yeah, we’ll put you on that transplant list!

In an emergency, you will be seen, on average, in about than 30 minutes[7]. In the UK, it will take 240 minutes[8]. In the U.S., will never be denied emergency care. You will never be denied treatment of conditions because of your age or other co-morbidity. In the U.S., you will get treatment at that phase. At worst, it will be U.K. quality. And as long as you can afford it, no one will ever deny you the right to direct your care as you choose.

None of this has anything to do with cost. The cost issue is where the U.S. public debate is. Not the care itself (usually).

You won’t find any number of conservatives exceeding 435 souls who like the way that the U.S. healthcare programs and markets work. But that doesn’t mean they think Europe has it better. On the contrary, they see what Europe has done and say, “We could do a lot better.” But translating that into a political action in a federal system of 50 states plus more territories and representing over 325 million people? Not so easy.

I’ve never known a U.S. conservative to “flip” after spending a few years in Europe. It usually emboldens them. It definitely gives you a new appreciation for the U.S., and tempers the things you don’t like about it. Accepting that discontent is a lot easier after reality strips away all that romantic charm that television and movies subconsciously build up about Europe.

Footnotes

[1] Britain Is Poorer Than Any US State: Yes, Even Mississippi

[2] If Sweden and Germany Became US States, They Would be Among the Poorest States

[3] America's Middle Class Is Smaller Than Europe's, But Richer

[4] Rationing care is a fact of life for the NHS

[5] ‘Burnout and depression’: the doctors struggling with their mental health | Sarah Marsh

[6] British nurses 'burnt-out' study finds

[7] http://health.usnews.com/health-...

[8] NHS hospital waiting times in England still failing to meet target

This is a good read. Because while there are many "advantages" to the current US health care system, there are many inefficiencies, some of which are just cultural. In all, what he's really explaining is it is sheer intellectual laziness to point to the countries of the EU and say "it should be like that, they have it all figured out.". Some things, they do have figured out. Other things you could judge we are far ahead on. Depends on the metric.

[kevm14]

I personally lived in Europe. While you may think they have a “higher” standard of living; you are fooling yourself.

Do Germans have a minimum level of guaranteed health insurance — yes they do. Do those same Germans also pay for private “upgraded” healthcare to get the care they need — yes they do. Do those same Germans complain about the amount of taxes they pay — yes they do.

Do those same Germans complain about the illegal immigrants into Germany from places like Turkey — yes they do. Why you may ask? — They complain that these immigrants who come to Germany, don’t speak German, make more money sitting on welfare than the average German worker — and to top it off, they aren’t contributing to the tax base.

So, to answer your question — after living in Europe, reading over 250 books to truly understand what is I believe and why — I became a much more ardent supporter of liberty; classical liberalism — I am for individual sovereignty — because one’s wealth always boils down to their own individual choices — EVERY TIME — if they are born poor; they can change that in their adult life with good choices — See Ben Carson or John Huntsman!

Additionally, when you talk about higher standard of living — what people don’t understand is that in the United States, our citizen who live in poverty, have more luxuries than most middle-class citizens in Europe. True fact!

Wealth and “standard of living” is a relative item. When we look at 2009 figures on “spending” among poor households and realize that nearly 64% have CABLE and 54% have a gaming system — they are making personal choices to not invest that money into a library card for their children to excel in school. I am making no personal judgment; simply pointing out the choices people make all the time in their lives that affect them and those around them.

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This kind of conversation seems fairly taboo in liberal circles. Yes, there is a flip side to the argument and someone else can make it.

[kevm14]

Short and sweet:

Generally speaking, when you move around the world and live in different places you tend to get a very rich understanding of different societies and ways of living

I've found a correlation, generally, the more places you go to, the higher your estimation of the US in general becomes. With some exceptions of course, but that's how it's been for me

I tend to agree with other answers, that life abroad makes you more of a conservative in terms of government and so on, but more liberal or libertarian socially.

You also get an appreciation of culture - western culture, Asian, middle eastern, and so on, sometimes with unintended results