Camaro hunting
Re: Camaro hunting
Lots to talk about and maybe Bill wants to create a general Camaro thread or something. For now here are the few pictures I took. We were kind of doing stuff so I didn't get many. If I end up adding stuff I can just move to the new thread if Bill decides to make one.
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Re: Camaro hunting
So like I said there are a few anecdotes and some resulting stress. But for now let me focus on the car.
Overall I'd rate the condition as nearly new except for some small blemishes, such as a possibly curbing of the right rear wheel. A 6 inch scuff on the front splitter. That's about all I noticed.
7,4xx miles. It's had a bunch of oil changes, supposedly with Royal Purple. So fancy. Original brakes. He claims original tires. They seemed to be wearing pretty evenly and if true, will probably go 15k. We are not sure they are original because the tire on the wheel with the curb rash had no corresponding tire marks. Should check the tire on the other side just in case it used to be on that wheel for some reason. Actually any of the tires could have been on that wheel so should check all for any scuffing.
Mods are a K&N air intake and muffler delete. And skip shift delete, of course.
I test drove, Bill was in the passenger seat, and the seller sat in the back.
Oh my god I am tired. Maybe I need to do this tomorrow....
Overall I'd rate the condition as nearly new except for some small blemishes, such as a possibly curbing of the right rear wheel. A 6 inch scuff on the front splitter. That's about all I noticed.
7,4xx miles. It's had a bunch of oil changes, supposedly with Royal Purple. So fancy. Original brakes. He claims original tires. They seemed to be wearing pretty evenly and if true, will probably go 15k. We are not sure they are original because the tire on the wheel with the curb rash had no corresponding tire marks. Should check the tire on the other side just in case it used to be on that wheel for some reason. Actually any of the tires could have been on that wheel so should check all for any scuffing.
Mods are a K&N air intake and muffler delete. And skip shift delete, of course.
I test drove, Bill was in the passenger seat, and the seller sat in the back.
Oh my god I am tired. Maybe I need to do this tomorrow....
Re: Camaro hunting
Fun facts about brakes:
I am actually not sure if the 1LE uses different brakes than the regular SS. From what I could find, the front rotors are 13.98" diameter and 1.261" thick. The rear rotors are 14.37" diameter and 1.102" thick.
I thought those numbers sounded familiar so I looked up my CTS-V. The front rotors are 13.98" diameter and 1.263" thick. The rear rotors are 14.37" diameter and 1.102" thick.
Of course they are not compatible because the CTS-V uses a 6-lug pattern.
For front pads, if you select aftermarket AC Delcos (as opposed to GM OEM), here is the list:
I noticed the Camaro front pads have large damping weights on them which my CTS-V does not have (and they don't squeal anyway). However, the rear pads get even more interesting for AC Delco aftermarket replacements:
It would also appear that the 04 CTS-V marked the beginning of this Brembo setup that was reused on other vehicles, as it is the oldest vehicle listed as compatible.
Another tidbit: the L99/automatic SS uses slightly smaller brakes. An automatic ZL1 is somewhat understandable given the car's more cruiser setup but an auto regular SS I would have been very vocally against...it's just...unnecessarily lame.
I am actually not sure if the 1LE uses different brakes than the regular SS. From what I could find, the front rotors are 13.98" diameter and 1.261" thick. The rear rotors are 14.37" diameter and 1.102" thick.
I thought those numbers sounded familiar so I looked up my CTS-V. The front rotors are 13.98" diameter and 1.263" thick. The rear rotors are 14.37" diameter and 1.102" thick.
Of course they are not compatible because the CTS-V uses a 6-lug pattern.
For front pads, if you select aftermarket AC Delcos (as opposed to GM OEM), here is the list:
Basically that means some trim level of those cars use a compatible front caliper to each other (i.e. the pads will fit).BUICK REGAL 2014
CADILLAC ATS 2013-2016
CADILLAC CT6 2016-2017
CADILLAC CTS 2004-2016
CADILLAC STS 2005-2011
CADILLAC XTS 2013-2015
CHEVROLET CAMARO 2010-2019
CHEVROLET CORVETTE 2014-2016
FORD GT 2005-2006
FORD MUSTANG 2007-2014
PONTIAC G8 2009
I noticed the Camaro front pads have large damping weights on them which my CTS-V does not have (and they don't squeal anyway). However, the rear pads get even more interesting for AC Delco aftermarket replacements:
Same on the rear - some trim of all of these vehicles have the same basic rear Brembo brakes.CADILLAC CTS 2004-2019
CADILLAC STS 2005-2011
CHEVROLET CAMARO 2010-2019
CHEVROLET SS 2015-2017
CHRYSLER 300 2005-2014
DODGE CHALLENGER 2008-2018
DODGE CHARGER 2006-2018
DODGE DURANGO 2018
DODGE MAGNUM 2006-2008
FERRARI F430 2006-2009
JEEP GRAND CHEROKEE 2006-2018
It would also appear that the 04 CTS-V marked the beginning of this Brembo setup that was reused on other vehicles, as it is the oldest vehicle listed as compatible.
Another tidbit: the L99/automatic SS uses slightly smaller brakes. An automatic ZL1 is somewhat understandable given the car's more cruiser setup but an auto regular SS I would have been very vocally against...it's just...unnecessarily lame.
Re: Camaro hunting
And here's a fun fact about the 1LE: GM apparently included an accessory oil catch can/separator with the 1LE. It comes in a separate box and can be plumbed into the car's PCV system and stock air intake (not compatible with the K&N). That is a big nod from GM that these cars are intended to be used hard in track conditions. I would expect non-track oil consumption to be approximately zero.
Re: Camaro hunting
And now I will start to fill in my overall driving impressions and other opinions about the car. First the easy stuff. Exterior and interior.
It obviously looks very aggressive with the ZL1 wheels and high performance tires. As a reminder, the 1LE uses the same wheels as the ZL1, which means 20" in the front and rear. The rears, like the ZL1, are 1" wider. Unlike the ZL1, the front and rear tires are the same (and match the ZL1 front). It's weird that they did that. The fact is 20" is for aesthetics and I would have preferred a 19", which would elongate the contact patch a bit adding more traction, a smaller wheel diameter means less rotating inertia which would slightly improve braking and acceleration. And typically, incrementally cheaper tires.
The 3M wrap on the hood looks unfinished and I would understand if Bill wanted to switch to a painted hood at some point. Then again that is a major visual identifier of the 1LE.
For interior, I found everything overall to look just fine. Plenty of hard plastics but I don't know why anything else would be expected or mandatory in a vehicle like this. You could get a nice car for $42k in 2013 but it will be a turbo 4 cylinder or V6/I6 with small brakes and lame performance. Performance costs money. I don't think the interior needs an apology. That said, it was updated for 2013 with MyLink, a new style rear view mirror that looks surprisingly premium, and some nice stitching on the dash. With the 2SS trim, everything seems perfectly fine to me.
On room, I find the front row is actually quite comfortable. There is plenty of elbow room and the driving position is very comfortable. You could drive across the country in this car no problem. The seats were supportive.
Ergonomics are weird and were clearly not a major focus in development. The left climate control knob almost completely blocks the low mounted oil pressure gauge (and side note, those gauges are not something you'd actually look at while racing - they are so low as to be useless if you actually wanted to monitor something). But it is still nice to have the info available. Then the steering wheel blocks vast sweeps of the speedo and tach in the driving position. The great news is this car has a HUD and may be the first vehicle I've driven with one, shockingly. I absolutely LOVE the HUD. Brightness and position is adjustable, and it has several displays to choose from. I left it on speed and tach. Turn signals also show up. Other stuff is probably on there, too. It looks like it is floating at the front of the hood. The headlight knob is completely hidden behind the steering wheel on the dash instead of being on a stalk, because the stalk controls the DIC menu stuff. Oh and the climate controls themselves are just oddly designed. I get the ring for fan and heat, but the buttons inside are kind of odd to operate. It's something you'd get used to. I am just making the point that control ergonomics are strange. The primary controls, however, are great. Steering wheel, shifter, pedals. The alcantara wheel is nice and grippy.
The last important interior thing is visibility. Obviously it is compromised but you expect that going in and it is just a part of the car, and a consequence of the styling. I did not find the visibility to present an issue except for driving right next to a curb with no shoulder. I was paranoid of curbing one of the giant wheels/tires since I sort of perceive that they stick out past the body. As far as lane changes, the mirrors and a quick blind spot check (a sideways glance, not a rearward glance) is sufficient. I even backed up with just the mirrors though the backup camera allows you to see directly behind you and is useful in some circumstances. For backing into a spot next to a vehicle, I think the side mirrors are MORE useful than the camera. The camera is for things you can't see in any mirror, which means a small child or something directly behind you.
Oh, I forgot to mention - I still hate the coupe form factor. The long doors, the way you have to get in and out, especially next to another car, is just so annoying. I hated it back when I had my 4th gen and nothing has changed. Once in the car, this is obviously not an issue. I just find needless compromise on both front and rear ingress - and when there are a list of performance sedans that weigh about the same as this, it ends up being a compromise for styling. Of course, GM didn't happen to build a car with this level of track performance until the Alpha ATS-V and CTS-V, but that was not an engineering or physics limitation. Put these shocks/springs-anti-roll bars into a Chevy SS, and upgrade the tires, and it would probably be about as good. It does underscore the value of a gen 5 1LE, especially as a used car, which is a great segue to performance and driving impressions.
It obviously looks very aggressive with the ZL1 wheels and high performance tires. As a reminder, the 1LE uses the same wheels as the ZL1, which means 20" in the front and rear. The rears, like the ZL1, are 1" wider. Unlike the ZL1, the front and rear tires are the same (and match the ZL1 front). It's weird that they did that. The fact is 20" is for aesthetics and I would have preferred a 19", which would elongate the contact patch a bit adding more traction, a smaller wheel diameter means less rotating inertia which would slightly improve braking and acceleration. And typically, incrementally cheaper tires.
The 3M wrap on the hood looks unfinished and I would understand if Bill wanted to switch to a painted hood at some point. Then again that is a major visual identifier of the 1LE.
For interior, I found everything overall to look just fine. Plenty of hard plastics but I don't know why anything else would be expected or mandatory in a vehicle like this. You could get a nice car for $42k in 2013 but it will be a turbo 4 cylinder or V6/I6 with small brakes and lame performance. Performance costs money. I don't think the interior needs an apology. That said, it was updated for 2013 with MyLink, a new style rear view mirror that looks surprisingly premium, and some nice stitching on the dash. With the 2SS trim, everything seems perfectly fine to me.
On room, I find the front row is actually quite comfortable. There is plenty of elbow room and the driving position is very comfortable. You could drive across the country in this car no problem. The seats were supportive.
Ergonomics are weird and were clearly not a major focus in development. The left climate control knob almost completely blocks the low mounted oil pressure gauge (and side note, those gauges are not something you'd actually look at while racing - they are so low as to be useless if you actually wanted to monitor something). But it is still nice to have the info available. Then the steering wheel blocks vast sweeps of the speedo and tach in the driving position. The great news is this car has a HUD and may be the first vehicle I've driven with one, shockingly. I absolutely LOVE the HUD. Brightness and position is adjustable, and it has several displays to choose from. I left it on speed and tach. Turn signals also show up. Other stuff is probably on there, too. It looks like it is floating at the front of the hood. The headlight knob is completely hidden behind the steering wheel on the dash instead of being on a stalk, because the stalk controls the DIC menu stuff. Oh and the climate controls themselves are just oddly designed. I get the ring for fan and heat, but the buttons inside are kind of odd to operate. It's something you'd get used to. I am just making the point that control ergonomics are strange. The primary controls, however, are great. Steering wheel, shifter, pedals. The alcantara wheel is nice and grippy.
The last important interior thing is visibility. Obviously it is compromised but you expect that going in and it is just a part of the car, and a consequence of the styling. I did not find the visibility to present an issue except for driving right next to a curb with no shoulder. I was paranoid of curbing one of the giant wheels/tires since I sort of perceive that they stick out past the body. As far as lane changes, the mirrors and a quick blind spot check (a sideways glance, not a rearward glance) is sufficient. I even backed up with just the mirrors though the backup camera allows you to see directly behind you and is useful in some circumstances. For backing into a spot next to a vehicle, I think the side mirrors are MORE useful than the camera. The camera is for things you can't see in any mirror, which means a small child or something directly behind you.
Oh, I forgot to mention - I still hate the coupe form factor. The long doors, the way you have to get in and out, especially next to another car, is just so annoying. I hated it back when I had my 4th gen and nothing has changed. Once in the car, this is obviously not an issue. I just find needless compromise on both front and rear ingress - and when there are a list of performance sedans that weigh about the same as this, it ends up being a compromise for styling. Of course, GM didn't happen to build a car with this level of track performance until the Alpha ATS-V and CTS-V, but that was not an engineering or physics limitation. Put these shocks/springs-anti-roll bars into a Chevy SS, and upgrade the tires, and it would probably be about as good. It does underscore the value of a gen 5 1LE, especially as a used car, which is a great segue to performance and driving impressions.
Re: Camaro hunting
Alright so I had some varying opinions about certain aspects of the car. But let me just state this clearly up front: I absolutely love the way this car drives and I think it is the single most important thing about the car.
I knew I would love it but I didn't know exactly how it would feel. First, a word about suspension RPO codes. Let me list how I think they map out:
FE2: base V6, I believe.
FE3: 2010-2011 SS coupe, and 2011-2015 SS convertible. They may have upgraded the V6 cars to FE3 in 2012 but I did not verify that.
FE4: 2012-2015 Camaro SS coupes
FE5: 2012-2015 ZL1
FE6: 2013-2015 SS 1LE
FE7: 2014-2015 Z/28
(Side note, look at how the gen 5 was refined and improved each year)
Look at where the 1LE sits in that list. That actually says everything you need to know about the way the chassis was tuned. But I will say a lot more.
The car does have EPS but it is pretty well tuned. The weight is great, and happily, not overly heavy. It doesn't have a heavy on-center feel but it does have a feel there, and it also goes straight with no issues. There is some tramline on very bad surfaces (visually rutted roads and very uneven backroads) but overall, this car goes down the road with no drama. Then just as you get off center, it wants to turn in immediately and this may be the best part. On tighter turns I find that the return feels overly firm, a bit artificially so, but this is not as critical - I might say it feels like the return if it had no power steering, which is interesting. Overall I would rate the steering very high indeed. It is way better than my CTS-V mostly due to on center, overall precision, faster ratio, more direct feel and more effort but not too much. My STS actually has more similar steering to the 1LE than my CTS-V if you can believe that.
The damping is excellent. It kind of feels like my CTS-V, but with firmer springs and even more damping. On normal roads with normal bumps, the suspension overall is actually very livable. And even on bumps, there is actual impact absorption. Basically it does everything I've said I like about my CTS-V with FG2 shocks, but at the FE6 level, if that makes sense. The most uncomfortable thing it does is on lower frequency undulations - you basically will go up and down with the road. It is keeping the wheels on the ground and the vehicle motions under control, so this is not a negative.
All day there was no traction to speak of in 1st. 2nd would hook up occasionally at a very low RPM but typically start to break loose (at less than WOT) by 3,000 rpm or so. 3rd was good though a firm 2-3 (not even a hard shift, just a firm one) would scratch the tires. It was 50F and either slight precipitation or damp. Even the roads that seemed dry were probably damp. I do like the LS3. Torque basically everywhere you want it but it will still happily wind out if you want. I wish my CTS-V had throttle response more like this - and rev match blipping worked very well and I was nailing downshifts on basically the first try.
Which leads me to the trans. The TR6060 is awesome. Tight gates, tight feel, positive engagement but not too much effort. It is a very nice transmission.
I don't have too much to say on the brakes - there is a little initial travel but then it bites and they work more or less like my CTS-V, as expected. I have high standards for brakes especially on performance cars and I'm sure these are up to the task.
The muffler delete was not too loud, nor does it drone on the highway. It crackles pretty loudly on overrun which is a nice touch. Bill could probably just leave this. If I wanted to be picky, I'd probably say that I would prefer a muffler system like from Magnaflow or something, as there is less tone and more low frequency from the exhaust than I'd prefer - more of an older school sound. I don't know that I would run out and do any of this if it were my car.
I knew I would love it but I didn't know exactly how it would feel. First, a word about suspension RPO codes. Let me list how I think they map out:
FE2: base V6, I believe.
FE3: 2010-2011 SS coupe, and 2011-2015 SS convertible. They may have upgraded the V6 cars to FE3 in 2012 but I did not verify that.
FE4: 2012-2015 Camaro SS coupes
FE5: 2012-2015 ZL1
FE6: 2013-2015 SS 1LE
FE7: 2014-2015 Z/28
(Side note, look at how the gen 5 was refined and improved each year)
Look at where the 1LE sits in that list. That actually says everything you need to know about the way the chassis was tuned. But I will say a lot more.
The car does have EPS but it is pretty well tuned. The weight is great, and happily, not overly heavy. It doesn't have a heavy on-center feel but it does have a feel there, and it also goes straight with no issues. There is some tramline on very bad surfaces (visually rutted roads and very uneven backroads) but overall, this car goes down the road with no drama. Then just as you get off center, it wants to turn in immediately and this may be the best part. On tighter turns I find that the return feels overly firm, a bit artificially so, but this is not as critical - I might say it feels like the return if it had no power steering, which is interesting. Overall I would rate the steering very high indeed. It is way better than my CTS-V mostly due to on center, overall precision, faster ratio, more direct feel and more effort but not too much. My STS actually has more similar steering to the 1LE than my CTS-V if you can believe that.
The damping is excellent. It kind of feels like my CTS-V, but with firmer springs and even more damping. On normal roads with normal bumps, the suspension overall is actually very livable. And even on bumps, there is actual impact absorption. Basically it does everything I've said I like about my CTS-V with FG2 shocks, but at the FE6 level, if that makes sense. The most uncomfortable thing it does is on lower frequency undulations - you basically will go up and down with the road. It is keeping the wheels on the ground and the vehicle motions under control, so this is not a negative.
All day there was no traction to speak of in 1st. 2nd would hook up occasionally at a very low RPM but typically start to break loose (at less than WOT) by 3,000 rpm or so. 3rd was good though a firm 2-3 (not even a hard shift, just a firm one) would scratch the tires. It was 50F and either slight precipitation or damp. Even the roads that seemed dry were probably damp. I do like the LS3. Torque basically everywhere you want it but it will still happily wind out if you want. I wish my CTS-V had throttle response more like this - and rev match blipping worked very well and I was nailing downshifts on basically the first try.
Which leads me to the trans. The TR6060 is awesome. Tight gates, tight feel, positive engagement but not too much effort. It is a very nice transmission.
I don't have too much to say on the brakes - there is a little initial travel but then it bites and they work more or less like my CTS-V, as expected. I have high standards for brakes especially on performance cars and I'm sure these are up to the task.
The muffler delete was not too loud, nor does it drone on the highway. It crackles pretty loudly on overrun which is a nice touch. Bill could probably just leave this. If I wanted to be picky, I'd probably say that I would prefer a muffler system like from Magnaflow or something, as there is less tone and more low frequency from the exhaust than I'd prefer - more of an older school sound. I don't know that I would run out and do any of this if it were my car.
Re: Camaro hunting
I did try out the Boston Acoustics audio for a while on the trip. I guess it is what I expected. It is not a high dollar or high power system, but like with the exhaust, I don't know that I would run out and spend money to change it. I probably shouldn't compare it directly to the STS but I guess I will because that's what I am used to at this point. At louder volumes it starts to sound a little unclear and possibly harsh. There is a mid-bass tubbiness to the sound that I associate with BA. It does produce some lower frequencies but the mid-bass is more defined, and the lower bass does roll off. Treble sounds sort of similar to standard BOSE systems that I am familiar with, which is to say that there is a roll off and just a feeling that a cheaper driver was used. My STS is the only BOSE system I've tried that has such a broad and even frequency response, so if I said the BA system isn't that overly different from a standard BOSE system (would have to listen back to back), then this is not a bad thing.
To restate, I see absolutely no reason to rip it all out and change everything.
To restate, I see absolutely no reason to rip it all out and change everything.
Re: Camaro hunting
So overall, I would emphasize that I find this car to be a good value because I don't think you are going to duplicate the feel and total performance for the money - I say total because the acceleration specs are not ground breaking though yesterday it felt plenty powerful to me - I have no clue what you'd do with another 200 hp. It feels like a special car, and I like how dialed in the chassis is yet how willing and comfortable it is at driving down the highway on a road trip. So forget those people who say track focused cars are ruined for everything else - they are either wrong, or have driven inferior track focused cars. And I bet everything changes as the temps get warmer. It might take the edge off the engine, and add a bunch of traction. The idea of actually using this car's friction circle (and putting full power down in first) is a very exciting prospect.
I also like the overall simplicity of the car - it's basically the same as my CTS-V! The regular LS3 is pretty bulletproof and simple. No variable anything, no forced induction. It uses regular shocks. I also like the upgraded running gear from the ZL1 (diff/axles/wheel bearings) so it has mechanical robustness where my CTS-V is more fragile. The brakes are easy to maintain and last a while anyway. Only the tires are pricey and you are going to pay to play here. I might recommend one notch lower, but sticking with a summer tire. Something like a Michelin Pilot Super Sport or equivalent. I would not cheap out on tires. Plenty of time to figure that out anyway.
For fuel economy, I'd say it'll do 22-24 highway, and maybe approach 25 in the right conditions. That is not bad at all. This may place it just slightly worse than my CTS-V, but maybe only by 1 mpg or so. Maybe just call it the same.
I think the 5th gen 1LE is a bit of a sleeper in terms of model and segment. It has more conventional muscle car styling so you might think big/heavy/cumbersome/sloppy/etc. You'd be wrong, though exact wheel placement takes some getting used to. It did take a few model years for the 5th gen to sort out some chassis issues, so I think people will easily overlook it given the Alpha-based gen 6. But don't. The gen 5 SS 1LE is a great car. It is a real driver's car, in a muscle car package.
I also like the overall simplicity of the car - it's basically the same as my CTS-V! The regular LS3 is pretty bulletproof and simple. No variable anything, no forced induction. It uses regular shocks. I also like the upgraded running gear from the ZL1 (diff/axles/wheel bearings) so it has mechanical robustness where my CTS-V is more fragile. The brakes are easy to maintain and last a while anyway. Only the tires are pricey and you are going to pay to play here. I might recommend one notch lower, but sticking with a summer tire. Something like a Michelin Pilot Super Sport or equivalent. I would not cheap out on tires. Plenty of time to figure that out anyway.
For fuel economy, I'd say it'll do 22-24 highway, and maybe approach 25 in the right conditions. That is not bad at all. This may place it just slightly worse than my CTS-V, but maybe only by 1 mpg or so. Maybe just call it the same.
I think the 5th gen 1LE is a bit of a sleeper in terms of model and segment. It has more conventional muscle car styling so you might think big/heavy/cumbersome/sloppy/etc. You'd be wrong, though exact wheel placement takes some getting used to. It did take a few model years for the 5th gen to sort out some chassis issues, so I think people will easily overlook it given the Alpha-based gen 6. But don't. The gen 5 SS 1LE is a great car. It is a real driver's car, in a muscle car package.
Re: Camaro hunting
I have only gotten a chance to drive this a couple times, and was on the test drive. I pretty much agree with Kevin. This car is comfortable, and not only do I not mind the suspension, I would have been disappointed if it was any less than what it is. It really feels like it should in my opinion. This isn't a luxury car. It is supposed to be a performance car. It really isn't supposed to be a luxury/performance car either. So, anyway, I would have been disappointed if I didn't feel everything while driving. I like the muffler delete so far. Again, I planned to do something if the car was stock because the stock exhaust is way to quiet, unless the car was equipped with dual-mode exhaust, which seems to be the ideal situation. We'll see how that plays out. I agree that some of the interior ergonomics are almost comical, but I don't care, because as said, most of the important things are good. Overall I just need to get more comfortable driving it before I can really comment anymore.
Re: Camaro hunting
Looked up the tires to see if there was a recommended operating range. Surprisingly, there wasn't much info.
https://www.goodyear.com/en-US/tires/ea ... =undefined
They are a little less money than the crazy estimates were. Still a lot though. Was hoping for outside temp operating range, etc.
https://www.goodyear.com/en-US/tires/ea ... =undefined
They are a little less money than the crazy estimates were. Still a lot though. Was hoping for outside temp operating range, etc.