M/T: Tesla defines American luxury, not Cadillac or Lincoln

Non-repair car talk
kevm14
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Re: M/T: Tesla defines American luxury, not Cadillac or Linc

Post by kevm14 »

bill25 wrote:I think you are mostly right. I think if your brand was already not the highest tech, and already not highest performance, and starting to lose the looks battle, then you remove reliability, it is important.

People companies a pass on reliability because they shine somewhere else, be it tech, or performance, or luxury/prestige. Cadillac fell behind on most or all of these for about 3 decades. The performance came back in mid to late 00's.
Not sure about 3 decades and not sure about falling behind most or all of those areas across all models. I think that is a gross over-exaggeration.

Cadillac had good tech more or less continuously from the very beginning. The 70s alone brought fuel injection, ABS, airbags, trip computers, and all sorts of stuff - stuff that most people think arrived in the 90s). They added performance with the Northstar and the new-car characteristics of the engine were widely praised. For luxury I'd say they also always offered comfort and convenience, and the tradeoff was they were a LOT cheaper than the Europeans. If anything I'd say prestige was an issue ever since they were challenged by a triple punch of:
- European cars
- Japanese cars
- EPA rules that very much favored European and Japanese cars that were already being built or designed

We can look back at the 60s with rose colored glasses but there was no competition. It is easy to look back and say "I loved the 1967 coupe Deville" or whatever. But when you actually look at the product, it was not that fast despite the massive cubic inches, with ludicrous fuel consumption, and was a ponderous, lumbering vehicle. It was the same thing a 1987 Brougham was, except the Brougham had a much better weight/size to interior space ratio (and thus fuel economy and handling) due to GM's major investment for the 1977 B/D-bodies, which was actually a big success for them in general.

On the sport/euro track, they were adding sport trims to the new FWD stuff in the late 80s! Go watch old Motorweeks - it's all documented. Then they got more serious in the 90s with the STS. Then the Catera. And finally the CTS which connected all the dots (also the XLR for 2003, and there was a V soon after, which was a bit of an oddity but far superior to the old, FWD Eldorado though it was more an Allante replacement). They didn't decide to abandon comfort cruisers all at once. It was over decades! And it was for a reason - same reason they canceled the B-body in the 90s. Not enough people wanted a traditional American fullsize luxury sedan, and certainly not a coupe. GM mostly stopped adding tech to their fullsize RWD cars because they knew who was buying them. Their FWD stuff, meanwhile, got the technology and more modern interiors. A 1990 Brougham was actually available with an Olds 307 with a 4 barrel carb. That tells you everything you need to know. The Oldsmobile division (one that was mostly pointless since probably the early 90s) outlasted the Eldorado nameplate by 2 years. Times sure do change.

The fullsize American luxury vehicle was prestigious when that was the best thing you could buy. They do not get credit for being better than non-competitors at that time. For the most part, aside from a few bad engines, the later cars (i.e. late 70s and later) were technically superior (a result of actual competition or other pressures). I'm talking about better packaging, better handling, better fuel economy, better tech, better safety, better corrosion resistance, much longer maintenance intervals, and moving into the 90s, better performance.
kevm14
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Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:28 pm

Re: M/T: Tesla defines American luxury, not Cadillac or Linc

Post by kevm14 »

bill25 wrote:
That person would not have been burned and very well may have bought another new one. I bet that happened a lot.
I agree, but low resale due to issues and cars being worthless 5 years later isn't helping the brand.
Obviously this is true. But I think you'll find poor correlation between resale and reliability. Luxury cars that aren't a Lexus have poor resale, unless the argument is they are all equally unreliable. Teslas have had a load of quality issues and that doesn't seem to matter one damn.
kevm14
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Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:28 pm

Re: M/T: Tesla defines American luxury, not Cadillac or Linc

Post by kevm14 »

I predict that Cadillac and Lincoln will never make a resurgence in coastal cities. I do not think it is possible. Tesla worked because it was a silicon valley startup and people like that, for the same reason that they like their Apple devices even if everyone has one. They do not care for old Detroit. And Tesla never would have survived if they did not have their crazy CEO, or enjoy bat-shit crazy price to earnings ratios on their stock (a phenomenon which irresponsibly survived the original dotcom bubble)- a Detroit startup would have gone bankrupt like 20 times over.

The absolute best case for these brands is as an alternative to the BMWs, Mercedes, Range Rovers and so on that they usually buy. The use case is, what can I buy that's kind of close, that at least there aren't 12 of in my neighborhood. That's something but probably not a winning strategy.

Baby boomers are going to be octogenarians soon enough. They will probably insist on driving longer than their parents did. What are they going to buy? I assure you they are not looking for big, traditional American sedans. I think they are fine with uninteresting Japanese crossovers quite honestly.
bill25
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Re: M/T: Tesla defines American luxury, not Cadillac or Linc

Post by bill25 »

I am not sure what to say here. I think that the 70's were the end, or the beginning of the downfall. I don't really know anyone who has the impression that as a brand, they were good in the 80's. They may have had a couple things, but I think they got lazy. I think they started to turn things around with the STS as far as making a car people would want. But I think that fell short too.

They may have made advances but I don't think they kept up with competition.

Now, I think they have proved performance, but they need to focus on luxury. Whatever that means now.
kevm14
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Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:28 pm

Re: M/T: Tesla defines American luxury, not Cadillac or Linc

Post by kevm14 »

bill25 wrote:I don't really know anyone who has the impression that as a brand, they were good in the 80's.
A couple things.

1) I think things other than engine issues can cause poor consumer reactions, and this certainly extrapolates to all cars in general. The 80s were pretty transformative in a few ways (from a technology standpoint - and mostly in expanding and mainstreaming technologies that actually began in the 70s), new platforms, downsizing, attempting to get power back up toward the latter half of the decade, etc. Some cars could have ended up as dealer queens for things having nothing to do with the engine. I also think quality was not really high on ANY luxury brand, so I think it is unfair to use this as Cadillac-specific information.

2) The fact that 80s Cadillacs were not 60s Cadillacs is partially not Cadillac's fault. Did some Roger Smith cost cutting happen in the 80s? Certainly. But a lot of fuel economy, emissions and even economic factors (including the price of fuel itself) lead directly to 80s Cadillacs seeming like shadows of their former glory. Even as all of the characteristics I mentioned above improved even in the 80s (and they should not be dismissed) the simple fact of smaller cars with smaller engines meant that the general public was like "these are Cadillacs? How dare you." And maybe ironically, with engines like the V8-6-4, Cadillac literally tried to provide a Cadillac big block experience with modern assistance to obtain semi-reasonable fuel economy. Then they tried again with the very ill-conceived HT4100 and it wasn't until the 4.5 and 4.9 that they evolved their way past that. Same with the Olds 350 diesel. Great idea, had some execution issues. All three of those engines were a direct R&D response to market pressures that seem foggy to us now but were very real at the time. My point is, these things should not be dismissed in the context of talking about Cadillac's past. If Cadillac was not an aspirational brand in the 80s, then Lincoln and Chrysler certainly weren't, either. Many things OTHER than quality can impact the desirability of a brand or model. GM has had many market failures with specific models over the years AS NEW CARS, not having anything to do with long term reliability (i.e. failing to address a consumer need as well as the competition). Their FWD minivans were never very good and the most well received were the dustbuster fans of the first gen...but I digress.

There is so much important context to consider and discuss so I don't really think too much of comments like "Cadillac was garbage in the 1980s."
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